[magenta]

:grin: I myself am not,but fully respect those who are!So who is and why? 8)

[zoey]

I have never been strongly religious. In 2000 when my daughter died, I started off being angry, then decided that there was no God. When I met my husband in 2001 I discovered I was involved with a family that was chock full of preachers. He was raised by his grandparents when his mother died and his grandfather is a preacher. Almost all of his Uncles are preachers and his cousins are either preachers or nothing good. His family has never pushed me in this, but his grandmother did help me to see my daughters death in other ways and to realize that in this world there is obviously some force stronger than us in control. I now see that in almost every religion, the beliefs are basically the same. Love, goodness, forgiveness, honesty, faith. Different wording, different names, but basically the same. Some religions take their beliefs to what I consider bad extremes. If your faith hurts others then I think it's bad. What I tell people when they try to start "saving" or "converting" me is, My relationship with God is between me and Him. He knows me, I know Him and we understand each other.

[magenta]

Thats a great attitude to have zoey,I was not brought up religious.We went to sunday school when me and my brother were kids.But only briefly and with no lasting impressions.
I think if you are living your life in the best way you know how.Nice to other people and generally an honest person,you do not need to believe in a god.Follow your own philosophys in fairness,kindness and empathy. :smile:

[Ian]

I am not religious at all, but I do not dispute that God exists.
I am unsure, and it is also not too relevant to me, since I've believed
more and more through the past few years of my life that the best
seems to come when people focus on doing good for others and
themselves too.

My friend's mom said she wanted me to go worship in church because
she didn't want me to go to hell. My response was that I just didn't
want to worry about myself. Maybe it's just because my parents
used to call me selfish all of my childhood, but I'd feel selfish
if I was motivated to do good deeds because I thought it would
ensure my place in heaven.

I feel the need to say more, but I don't know what else there is to
say about my view.

[magenta]

Theres much about the bible that is irrellivant and out of date now.A lot of people who are believers know that walking on water etc are myths.Just having a basic belief in his principals is fine with me,as long as its not forced apon me to believe too!
Being kind,generous,empathetic and giving is pretty close to being 'relgious' anyway,they are what I try to be 'most of the time'.
We are only human after all,designed to make mistakes,if god is such a forgiving god,hell should not exist.
I think that was made up to scare people into being good,a very human way to get results on a grand scale.
The church do great things for homeless,drug addicted and/or abused children/adults.But believeing in a god is not necessary to me.I can do those things in my life without belief.I hope I havent offended anyone who is religious,I fully respect their beliefs,this is how I see life from my point of view. 8)

[Iselle]

I think perhaps you've got the definition of "religious" a little skewed. Being kind, generous, and empathetic is not "close" to being religious. And being able to be "good" on your own does not eliminate the need for God. Religion is believing in a higher power and creator. Period. And yes, that is me. I believe in God.

Now, it's only natural for those who believe in God to want to know the Word of God, and it just happens that in His word, to follow His ways, certain behaviors are encouraged and others discouraged. And yes, the whole view is on the side of goodness.

I think it's pretty obvious that in reading what is and isn't "proper", if every single person would follow the bible perfectly we would be in a very ideal state in regards to ourselves and our associations with each other. The world would run very smoothly.

But we don't, and never have. The bible is full of stories of battle between the good and the evil. Because no matter what, there are some people who just don't want to do any good.

So can people who don't believe in God be good people? Yes
Can people who believe in God still be bad people? Yes

The bible is not outdated. It is our history, it tells about God and how we came about and about Jesus and his experiences and about the experiences of those who had contact with God and Jesus. It is also a plan which God has always had for us, the dos and don'ts along with examples. It's not any different than a father telling two siblings squabbling over a lollipop that they have to learn to share. He's just telling us the best ways to live in harmony with each other. And yes it has predictions of the future. Perhaps these predictions don't make a whole lot of sense to all or most people, but think of what life was like all that time ago and what life is like now...all the developments like airplanes and such.....a person back then having a vision this far into the future would describe these things the best to his ability. If you had a vision that your neighbor's toddler snuck out of the house and walked into the path of an oncoming car, wouldn't you want to warn them? Whether you believe in visions or not, and thought it was just a terrible dream or not, wouldn't you just want to tell them just in case?

Most likely so. And say it was inevitable, or you decided not to say anything and it really happened. Only then would you know visions are real. Had you not said anything beforehand though, how many people would really believe you if you tried telling them afterwards that you saw it was going to happen? Only those who chose to believe. Because they have nothing else to go on other than your words. So back to the bible predictions, those who saw, wanted to warn, but unfortunately the gap in time is too long, and yes, translations make things more difficult so the descriptions are outside most of our understanding. And the people couldn't possibly live long enough to tell us if their visions came true.

As for the walking on water and such that you mentioned. No, obviously we can't do that. But it never said we could. It wasn't just anyone who walked on water. It was Jesus, as proof that he was the son of God, and Peter because he was with Jesus. It never said anybody else could on their own. It mentioned some who tried, and they sunk.

So unless Jesus was to appear to you today, and walk on water for you, there is no way for you to know for sure if he really can or not. You either choose to believe, or you don't.

So we have the bible....like we have history books...and we cherish our history books because we feel it's important to learn from our mistakes. As they say, history repeats itself. We believe our history books because they are not that far long ago, certainly not compared to the bible, so we still have proof and documentation that we can comprehend. So those of us who choose to believe choose to regard the bible as our history book also. And we try our best to decipher it the best we can. And people continue to study it and try to figure out the true meaning of certain things that are most confusing.

But like everything else, like poetry for example....those poets who had the best talent for writing in the abstract.....and who are now dead....many literary experts try to explain what the poets were feeling and what they really meant to say....and many have different opinions....Whose right? Who knows? The only people who could tell us took it with them to their grave. Pick the one that makes most sense to you.

It's the same with the bible. Many people take the words many different ways...some people conform them to fit their own needs and purposes. And because of this some people drive other people away from religion. I think it is people who use the bible to scare people into being good. They just share certain parts of the bible and then they put their own description of hell in people's head. And that is very unfortunate. Preachers nor Priests are above this either. They don't all agree with each other. And they vary in their goodness as well. And they also have different teaching strategies. Again, some not so pleasant. Just like my worst teacher and best teacher in school were both English teachers. It wasn't the fact that they taught English that repulsed or motivated me it was their personalities and how they chose to teach the subject.

Of course even people who say they are not religious accept parts of the bible they like and refuse to accept the parts they don't. You kind of made a remark that fit a little in this category Magenta. You say we are "only human after all, designed to make mistakes." So in order for us to be "designed" someone has to do the designing. And in order for some of our actions to be considered "mistakes", there must be a more perfect being to compare us to. But the thought of being designed to make mistakes is easy to accept. It takes away part of the blame when something goes wrong. You don't have to feel so bad, just chalk it up to "Hey, I'm sorry, but I'm only human." Piece of cake.

Then you say, "If God is such a forgiving God, hell should not exist." Understandably, this is not so easy to accept. The thought of facing consequences for our actions is not a pleasant thought. And this really is the reason most people choose not to accept religion. But I have to say, just because you don't like something, doesn't make it so. A semi truck can be coming towards you and you can shut your eyes and refuse to see it, but it will still hit you. Let me give an example many people here may be able to relate to. I love food and I wish I could eat all of it that I want without gaining weight but that's not possible. It's a consequence of my food choices. And the more I eat the more I gain and the more the consequences. Health issues, aching joints, and the gorgeous boy in school who won't give me the time of day. I can think that it's not fair, that he shouldn't be so shallow, that he should look at the real me. But it doesn't matter how I think it should be. He's still not going to ask me out. And the pain in my back or knees aren't going to go away either. And it can get even worse by leading to a stroke or heart attack and in that moment you can't help but think. What did I do that was so wrong? I only ate food! Something our body needs in the first place! How can it lead to such pain and sorrow? Maybe it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that's still the way it is.

Now there's really no telling how bad hell really is or isn't. Some paint it in a lot worse light that others. And how can a God who you gives you a whole lifetime of chances not be considered forgiving? You have to put your foot down sometime or people will run all over you. They'll never respect you. Imagine us living here without consequences....imagine all those in prison set free to rape and kill and steal as they please?

Anyway, I didn't mean to pick on you, Magenta, you just happened to give me a perfect example. And you did ask the religious question in the first place.

Just remember people are different and being "religious" does not make them the same. Believing in God doesn't make a person good. Just because a person believes in God doesn't mean they follow everything in the bible. Most people don't. It is a very hard thing to do. But the truely devoted continue to try. Some people don't try at all. They just hide behind God's name. And others are halfway. Just remember, next time you come across a "religious" person or group who gives you a negative vibe or makes you feel uncomfortable about yourself.....don't blame God or religion. Blame the person. God doesn't make anyone do anything. That person is his own person of his own free will, and would be just as pushy and annoying if he didn't believe in God and was just trying to convice you to buy a new vaccum cleaner or air cleaning system. "Yes, ma'am you've got some very nasty air circulating in here that is slowly decomposing your lungs as we speak! In just a few years time you'll develop life threatening diseases and die unless you act now and buy our product at once!" See? Just as scary and pushy and it has nothing to do with religion. Just the same, some people would be scared into buying it and others would get angry thinking it was a scam or something. Now what if this really was a phenomenal product? Perhaps there's really nothing decomposing your lungs but what if it did an amazing job for allergies? The angry people who were turned off to it would never know and miss out. Now if a fellow came along and explained the different allergens that would be removed from the air and how it would help alleviate your itchy eyes and help you sleep better at night, then offer for you to try it a few days to see for yourself.......Well you just might end up trying it afterall and come to see it was the best purchase you ever made in your life. There are people like this out there for religion, too. I met a lot of those pushy people when I was younger, there are definitely a lot of them out there, some mean well, but they just get over excited, and yeah I was turned off by it and avoided them, but fortunately I finally ran into the other type of person. I felt comfortable pouring out my questions and I was interested in hearing his answers and then finding the sections in the bible myself that he referred to so I could see for myself.....and I developed my own thoughts, and made my own observations... and simply just came to my own conclusion to believe. I was raised and taught to believe, though my parents didn't go to church much, but now I believe for myself.

Sorry this got so long, but the bible is a big book and it takes years to really get to know it. Something like God and the bible can't be explained so simply. When it is, that's when so many things get misconstrued.

[Back to 135]

Iselle,

I think they struck a cord with you. This is something else we have in common. I believe in God and Jesus. I'm not a "bible thumper," and I miss church a lot, but God is with me every day.

The existence of heaven and hell? Why I believe they are real? They may not be concrete places. They may only be states of being, but they do exist. Have you ever been in a situation where you felt a shiver up your spine? Or you were walking along and you just felt fear? There is evil all around us. Some people are infected with it. On the otherside, have you ever just had a moment of contentment, where you feel completely safe? There is more than what we see. God is with you - even if you don't believe.

I have been very blessed throughout my life. However, if I told you my life story, you may disagree. We have all been exposed to horrible things. The key - I have always survived, perservered and I will continue to survive no matter what horrible evil thing the devil sends my way. I still feel pain and sadness, but I am able to work through it because I know, no matter what, I am safe. I feel safe, because I believe in God.

I definately do not know all the answers or even many answers about religion. And I truly respect those that have a different opinion -it is understandable. Somewhat logical not to believe. However, I'm a logical person, and to me, if you really look/feel what is around you and watch people. You can see good and evil. You can feel that there is something greater.

Interesting topic Magenta. Most people I come across believe. I was suprised to see this topic was weighted the other way. I wanted to balance it out a little

[magenta]

I was surprised to finally see another response to this subject after a long silence.Yes,I brought the subject up for disscussion Iselle,I am interested in what people believe and dont believe.
I dont believe because I have never seen god/jesus with my own eyes.I believe we are the result of evolution.
When the bible was written,it was a very primative time,miracles that were documented then.Are all scientifically proven otherwise now.
Life was hard,people were being tortured by the romans,the people had no hope left in their lives.A man called jesus decided to do something about it.He felt sad his people were being persecuted and abused and wanted to give his people hope.
God has never been proven to exist,only that 'jesus' said he does.Did he turn water into wine?With todays machinery yeah,did he 'walk on water',no thats scientifically impossible.Turn all the water in egypt into blood?The miracles are endless but hold no 'water' as to scientific' proof!
I think people can believe in what they want,but I need to see it with my own eyes.The scientific explanation for things is the way I 'believe'.
I have never had an experience with a vision?Yeah,I get the feeling of dejevu sometimes,or the shiver down my spine,but thats cos Im cold from standing in a draft!
No I dont believe in a higher power or creator.If we all followed all the ideas of the bible,no the world would not run smoothly!It is outdated it was written in primative times by primative un-developed people a long time ago!
We dont need a god to tell us how to live our lives,we have learnt for ourselves how to live,right from wrong.I was brought up non-religious but was always curious why intelligent and worldly people believed in something they couldnt see or hear.
As far as hell is concerned,the church allows people to confess to their sins,rapists,child murderers.They are then "forgiven" in the eyes of god and allowed into heaven!? :???:
You say that the right sales person would sell my belief to me?No,no matter how it is explained to me,I will never believe.It is as if its a business and gods employees have to go out and recruit more members.
We are designed by the process of trial and error-LIFE-and evolution.Our bodys have adapted to what the earth has thrown at us.We changed things in/on our bodys to survive on the planet.Humans designed by trial and error over millions of years for survival.
As far as taking the easy way out,I could just go to confession and be forgiven,or face the consequences of our law system.As flawed as that is sometimes,is there to make people be more responsible for their actions.
I know that if I break the law,I will go to jail or be fined,god doesnt come into the equasion at all.I know full well that if I eat too much I will get fat,but I still do it,will god forgive me for that or will I pay for it with ill health?
There is no hell,hell is on earth in your own mind if you are an alcoholic.A mother or father who loses a child or children to a horrible accident or murdered.We all live with the consequences that life throws at us every day,as I said before we dont need to believe in a god to do this!
Why do we have to believe in a god anyway,we can look after ourselves.With the support and love of our familys anything is possible! :-D :grin: